Science of Chess: Reflex Epilepsy induced by Playing Chess

Comments on https://lichess.org/@/ndpatzer/blog/science-of-chess-reflex-epilepsy-induced-by-playing-chess/k08StYb4

Terry Pratchett would have a profound metaphor about this in "The Science of Discworld," but in case it isn't clear: correlation does not indicate causation.

Of course competitors should use all available information to their advantage, including some awareness about how brains work, but also be careful about prematurely jumping to conclusions.

Terry Pratchett would have a profound metaphor about this in "The Science of Discworld," but in case it isn't clear: correlation does not indicate causation. Of course competitors should use all available information to their advantage, including some awareness about how brains work, but also be careful about prematurely jumping to conclusions.

NDpatzer

@Toadofsky said in #2:

Terry Pratchett would have a profound metaphor about this in "The Science of Discworld," but in case it isn't clear: correlation does not indicate causation.

Of course competitors should use all available information to their advantage, including some awareness about how brains work, but also be careful about prematurely jumping to conclusions.

Can you say more about what you mean re: prematurely jumping to conclusions? I can't tell what you mean about competitors doing so - or is this a critique of speculating about relationships between complex functions from this study?

@Toadofsky said in #2: > Terry Pratchett would have a profound metaphor about this in "The Science of Discworld," but in case it isn't clear: correlation does not indicate causation. > > Of course competitors should use all available information to their advantage, including some awareness about how brains work, but also be careful about prematurely jumping to conclusions. Can you say more about what you mean re: prematurely jumping to conclusions? I can't tell what you mean about competitors doing so - or is this a critique of speculating about relationships between complex functions from this study?

Toadofsky

I question your main premise (that non-scientists can meaningfully understand our nervous system, as opposed to understanding that there are case studies and unproven hypotheses):

the functional consequences of structural damage can help us understand how cognition is put together in our nervous system...

In many patients, a specific trigger - perhaps alcohol, stress, or exercise - reliably induces seizure activity.

The case study - Reflex epilepsy brought on by chess...

I would suggest that players can hypothesize about how their own physiology works, and over time meditate on their knowledge and observations to figure out what habits work best for them, without necessarily understanding what causes what.

I question your main premise (that non-scientists can meaningfully understand our nervous system, as opposed to understanding that there are case studies and unproven hypotheses): > the functional consequences of structural damage can help us understand how cognition is put together in our nervous system... > > In many patients, a specific trigger - perhaps alcohol, stress, or exercise - reliably induces seizure activity. > > The case study - Reflex epilepsy brought on by chess... I would suggest that players can hypothesize about how their own physiology works, and over time meditate on their knowledge and observations to figure out what habits work best for them, without necessarily understanding what causes what.

NDpatzer

@Toadofsky said in #4:

I question your main premise (that non-scientists can meaningfully understand our nervous system, as opposed to understanding that there are case studies and unproven hypotheses):

I would suggest that players can hypothesize about how their own physiology works, and over time meditate on their knowledge and observations to figure out what habits work best for them, without necessarily understanding what causes what.

I agree with you about the second point. Players can absolutely introspect about their own practices and examine things that do and don't work for them without appealing to neuroscience. None of my writing is intended to imply that anyone needs to understand cognitive science or neuroscience to gain insights into their own game play or their own preferred approach to improving. What I do think is that chess is a good problem domain for seeing how scientists try to draw conclusions about the mind and the brain with different experimental techniques. My hope is that this is interesting to read about.

I think I still don't understand the first point. Is the critique that you don't think it's been established that different triggering stimuli actually cause seizures, for example, as opposed to those just being correlated? On the other hand, the first bit you quoted was about a broader point I do endorse - that brain/behavior relationships reveal the organization of behavior. Is that the premise you're questioning, or the potential for a non-specialist to appreciate the conclusions researchers try to draw from their work?

@Toadofsky said in #4: > I question your main premise (that non-scientists can meaningfully understand our nervous system, as opposed to understanding that there are case studies and unproven hypotheses): > > > > I would suggest that players can hypothesize about how their own physiology works, and over time meditate on their knowledge and observations to figure out what habits work best for them, without necessarily understanding what causes what. I agree with you about the second point. Players can absolutely introspect about their own practices and examine things that do and don't work for them without appealing to neuroscience. None of my writing is intended to imply that anyone needs to understand cognitive science or neuroscience to gain insights into their own game play or their own preferred approach to improving. What I do think is that chess is a good problem domain for seeing how scientists try to draw conclusions about the mind and the brain with different experimental techniques. My hope is that this is interesting to read about. I think I still don't understand the first point. Is the critique that you don't think it's been established that different triggering stimuli actually cause seizures, for example, as opposed to those just being correlated? On the other hand, the first bit you quoted was about a broader point I do endorse - that brain/behavior relationships reveal the organization of behavior. Is that the premise you're questioning, or the potential for a non-specialist to appreciate the conclusions researchers try to draw from their work?

Toadofsky

Honestly, I'm not sure which part I most strongly object to. I don't know how to say this, but I'm trying to be polite and focus on what little we agree upon.

NDpatzer

@Toadofsky said in #6:

Honestly, I'm not sure which part I most strongly object to. I don't know how to say this, but I'm trying to be polite and focus on what little we agree upon.

Fair enough. Thanks for reading! Always great to have feedback.

@Toadofsky said in #6: > Honestly, I'm not sure which part I most strongly object to. I don't know how to say this, but I'm trying to be polite and focus on what little we agree upon. Fair enough. Thanks for reading! Always great to have feedback.

Tuck_Fheory

On a personal note, I was diagnosed with a rare, incurable neurological condition called 'Chronic Cluster Headaches' around 4 yrs ago. It's a Hypothalamic dysfunction that causes an extreme pain reaction. The attacks are caused by the most innocuous things - light, temperature change, sleeping, chess!
It's a strange condition that might be interesting to study, and if you find the time to cure it, a Nobel prize awaits! :D
Kind regards, David

@NDpatzer Many thanks for this interesting article My best friend died of photo-sensitive Epilepsy some 30 years ago, so I've always understood the smallest actions could provoke the most severe of reactions in the brain's of certain people. It's nice to know people like you are fighting to understand these things On a personal note, I was diagnosed with a rare, incurable neurological condition called 'Chronic Cluster Headaches' around 4 yrs ago. It's a Hypothalamic dysfunction that causes an extreme pain reaction. The attacks are caused by the most innocuous things - light, temperature change, sleeping, chess! It's a strange condition that might be interesting to study, and if you find the time to cure it, a Nobel prize awaits! :D Kind regards, David